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Edelman VS Landry


#21

Yeah I do remember. I had 100% exposure to Kareem hunt last year across all my teams which won. He had a 5 week stretch where he didn’t score that well cause that entire offense was a funk. And it’s not like they were using an RBBC. They just weren’t running the ball much period cause they were losing games and just abandoned the run game a bit. Not sure how that disqualifies hunt from being a work horse back though. He touched the ball 330+ times and owned 90% market share of the teams rushes. Those are work horse numbers. Nagy was the OC. So your statement that Nagy doesn’t use work horse backs based on a 4-5 game stretch just isn’t accurate.


#22

Yes but he didnt have a Cohen back then. 4 to 5 games is a lot to get game scripted out of. Hunt had the talent to stay in the script because he can catch the ball really well. Howard is not that guy and Cohen is phenomenal at it. Not saying Howard wont have his games. But nagy just never constantly just pounds with one guy on the same game script constantly.


#23

If your argument that Cohen will take carries away from Howard, that’s fine. Or that Howard can’t catch (although he’s shown he’s gotten way better), that’s fine too. But that’s not what you said. You just made a blanket statement about how Nagy doesn’t use workhorse backs which just isn’t at all factually correct. That’s all I’m saying.

In the 2 years Nagy has worked as an OC in his career with the chiefs, they used a single work horse back. 1st it was ware, then Hunt.


#24

Apparently we disagree on what a workhouse back is because ware was definitely not and hunt came off the field on almost every 3rd down. That is not a complete workhorse. Gurley is a workhouse. Gurley doesnt get game scripted out. Workhorses dont get scripted out


#25

Hunt got 90% of the teams carries last year and played on over 70-75% of the teams snaps. If that’s not a workhorse back to you, then by your definition, there are only 2-3 workhorse backs in the entire league (Gurley, Zeke, Barkley), and therefore only 2-3 workhorse back coaches in the entire league.

Same with Ware. Played 70-80% of teams snaps the year he led the backfield. and had a 70-80% market share of the teams carries.

By your logic, Mixon is not a workhorse back. Gordon is not a workhorse back.

So yeah, if you go by your definition, then sure, Nagy has “never used a workhorse back”


#26

A workhouse back is a guy that catches passes consistently and stays on the field on 3rd downs. Hunt was pretty close to that. But not a full workhouse. Mixon and Gordon do not get scripted out.


#27

Hunt also led the team in receptions and targets at the RB position last year. Double what West got. He got taken out on 3rd downs cause his pass pro sucked @$$. Not cause he can’t catch, as he caught 53 balls for 455 yards and 3 TDs. He got 63 targets.

Based on 3 games Mixon was healthy/active this season, he is currently on pace for 64 targets. Neck and neck with Hunt last year. Yet, by your logic, Mixon is a workhorse and hunt wasn’t because “he got scripted out”. Every RB has bad games (unless you’re gurley or Bell cause they’re gods).

You’re choosing a 4-5 game sample size where the entire team was in shambles to fit your pre-conceived narrative and ignoring the other 12 games where he was heavily involved in the pass and run game and once again, dominated with 90% of the teams carries and 75% of the teams snaps. All I can do is give the numbers. If you want to take the go down with the ship approach, go for it.

Facts are facts. Hunt was a workhorse by most logical definitions. Just not your personal notion.

If you want to come up with any numbers or evidence to support your claims, I’m more than happy to hear them. So far, just seems like you’re content with sticking to your pre-conceived notion to try and win an argument when all the numbers have been laid out for you. Ignore them, use them, do as you please. But numbers don’t lie and don’t have biases. Personal opinions do.


#28

No one said he could not catch? I just specifically said he was the best past catcher on that team.

A bad game is not being scripted out. A bad game is averaging 2.9 yards a carry. I am talking about for fantasy purposes. Hunt got used more because there was no one else there. West is not a cohen. Howard is not Hunt.

Gurley, Bell, Barkley, Elliot, Gordan those guys are workhorses for fantasy. Those guys do not see games of 9 carries unless they are hurt. Hunt is not in the tier. And if Nagy was still there I guarantee you would be seeing alot more Ware than you do now. Although this year Hunt is not catching many passes. 4-5 games is HUGE for a fantasy season are you kidding me?! I loved Hunt and I still do. But there was a huge part of the season where even they footballers are like what do you do with Hunt? He is not getting involved. A true workhorse never gets questioned like that. You just proved me right by pointing out he had 4-5 games where he barely got you anything at all. That is the type of offense Nagy runs. He does not have a guy that he just constantly feeds the ball too every single game no matter the situation. Its the nature of how the league is now. Workhorse running backs are few and far between and the NFL has gone away from them. It is a passing league so unless the RB can catch passes and run routes extremely well then they are not going to be used like that. I think Hunt can. I believe Hunt is a top 5 talent in the NFL. But Nagy did not use him like that. Facts are facts. If it makes you feel better about your precious ego then I will say he is a tier 2 workhorse. Not quite the top level.

Look just do me a favor and keep you OPINION to yourself if all your going to do is come on MY forum and just try to force me to think like you. You obviously have not been playing this game very long and you already think you know everything. I will have my opinion and you can keep yours. But realize that what you say is also just an OPINION. You have not proven anything except but back up my claim even more.


#29

So Hunt can only be considered a workhorse then if there was another running back on the team as good as Cohen. Where’s the Cohen on Dallas? Or Rams? Or Giants?

Didn’t say West is Cohen. Didn’t say Howard is hunt either. Just said that Nagy has used workhorse backs before.

Agreed

Gordon: Week 2 2018 9 carries, Week 2 2017: 9 carries
Elliot: Week 2 2017: 9 carries
Gurley: Week 10 2017: 11 carries, Week 13 2016: 11 carries
Kareem Hunt: Weeks 6, 9, 13: 9 carries. 1-2 more than everyone else above per year.

It happens to everyone. Happens to those guys less cause they are the top of the top. Elite of the elite. And agree hunt isn’t in the same tier. Never said he was. But even for workhorses, it still happens although it doesn’t happen often. And it only happened 3 times for hunt. And in those 3 games he got 9 carries, he still saw 5-6 targets a game. So he didn’t get “scripted out”, he just didn’t have a great fantasy day like you said. And the team as a whole, didn’t produce.

Don’t think I ever said hunt was in their tier. I just said Hunt is a work horse back cause he fits the volume definition. In 2017, Hunt got 325 touches. Melvin Gordon got 342 touches. Barkley this year is on pace for 326 touches. The general cut off to be considered a workhorse is 300+ touch running back. If you would like to shift that to 340 for your personal definition, then that’s okay. We can agree to disagree on that one.

Really? You can guarantee that? You should play fantasy professionally then cause you would clean the f up. That’s next level skills. I don’t think anyone can guarantee things in fantasy but that’s just me. That’s like me saying “if McKinnon didn’t go down, I guarantee you he would suck in fantasy this season” to support me McKinnon theory. Unfortunately I don’t have that prowess so I can’t guarantee anything. I can just make my guesses based on what happened. What I know is after Nagy took over play calling duties from Reid last year, which was starting in week 14 per NFL article (after that 4-5 week stretch where hunt struggled), Hunt got the following volume:

Week 14: 25 carries + 3 targets
Week 15: 24 Carries + 9 targets
Week 16: 29 carries + 4 targets

I think that looks like workhorse volume and being fed to me. Can agree to disagree on that as well.

Sorry didn’t realize you owned this forum. Always amuses when people like you get mad and default to personal attacks when presented with another side. I come on here to debate for fun. Honestly enjoy the discussion and I have been proven wrong by others more times than I can count. You’re right, I don’t know everything, never claimed to know everything but I am learning. I just present the information that is available at a point in time and everyone, including yourself can access. Plenty of people on here that know WAY more than I do. But when I have an opinion or make a claim, I try and provide some evidence and reasoning for why I think that way rather than just make baseless statements and then insult people when I’m proven incorrect.

I myself have huge reservations about Howard. I was very high on him coming into the season and my theories there have been proven to be totally wrong and incorrect 5 weeks in. And I actually do think you’re right in that it has to do with Nagy’s scheme among a couple other things I realized after reviewing the film this past week. All I said was Nagy has definitely used a workhorse role in his offense before. So to say he has NEVER used one was a stretch. Anyway, agree to disagree. Have a good sir.


#30

You really have way too much time on your hands.

And look back man. Pretty sure you got way too personal first. I said we both had opinions. You tried to just say yours was facts. I loved debating too. but your not proving anything at this point. This is just purely stupid and a wast of time. And technically yes I created this particular forum so it is mine.

You got upset I disagreed with you. (has happened once before with you). I tried to say hey its just our opinions but you got personal. So just leave it at that and have a good one.

Trade is done now anyways.

I am happy with this one for awhile.


#31

you created this forum? Damn. Sorry didn’t know that, thought you just posted a thread on a forum hosted by footballers which everyone has access to and can post on. Don’t ban me please.

I referred to all the numbers and statistics I posted to you as facts. Which they are. Cause they already happened and actually are not subject to opinion at all. You can easily look everything up and do the work to show the evidence as you want which clearly you don’t want to do and rather just insult me again by telling me how much time I have on my hands. Not sure how what I did is getting personal unless you take it personally. I guess both yours and my opinion, on what a workhorse back definition differs. I just see it as anyone who gets 300+ touches and dominates touches/snaps in their own backfield. You see it as 3-4 names in the league. That’s where we have disagreed which is fine. Open for interpretation although most people including the ballers consistently referred to Hunt last season as a workhorse back.

I’m not offended at all from you disagreeing with me and actually didn’t take anything personally until you decided to make a statement telling me how i clearly haven’t been playing this long (which you have no way knowing) and think I know everything (which I’ve already said I don’t).

Either way, that looks like a solid roster. Pulled off a good trade so good on you.


#32

Really no need for me to get involved here & last year really doesn’t mean much at all at this point, but I thought I’d give my opinion anyway.

Hunt absolutely was a workhorse back last year. They did have a 4-5 game stretch where the entire offense struggled, not just Hunt. When a guy has 330 touches and roughly 90% of the team’s carries, I don’t think there’s much room for debate about whether that’s workhorse level or not. Regardless of whether or not he’s on the same level as guys like Zeke, Gurley, & Barkley.